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Senilix
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Message 1556 - Posted: 8 Sep 2013, 15:58:37 UTC

I would like to discuss this video:


I reported this video with the following description

Canonical result says 'No Chick', but I agree with DoctorNow that there's a chick visible during the parent swap.

This video was reviewed by Leila Mohsenian with the following description:
Incubating parent leaves at 15:40:36, second parent arrives around 15:40:43. And yes, there is a chick present in the nest bowl, which you can see if you look closely enough when the parents trade off. I also marked "bird absent from nest" because there were a few seconds between when one parent leaves the nest and the other parent arrives in which the nest was completely unattended.


So Leila marked it as 'bird absence'. But I disagreee: the instructions for bird absence given to us say Select yes if the parent is not on the nest (off camera) for any portion of the video. There is clearly not a single moment where both parents are off screen in this video!

Moreover, none of the watchers marked 'bird absence' - only the expert did. Doesn't this mean, all watchers will be marked as invalid?

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Message 1557 - Posted: 8 Sep 2013, 16:15:05 UTC - in response to Message 1556.

This is one of those cases where the computer science requirements (which we use to mark these videos; absent means no parent in the frame) and the wildlife requirements (which we are not using to mark the videos, but absent means no parent on the nest bowl) come into conflict.

It is only natural that Leila, being one of Susan's wildlife students (I presume), would use a different definition of what it means to be absent from the nest than what we have been instructed to use.

Of course, Travis needs the broader definition of absent because he needs his software to be able to identify anything happening in the video that will require a human viewer. Once his software is up and running, we will no longer be tasked with viewing videos where nothing is happening - they will all be evaluated automatically.

Unfortunately, this is not the only instance where the Expert marking is wrong. I know of two other cases so far.

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Message 1560 - Posted: 8 Sep 2013, 17:04:24 UTC - in response to Message 1556.

Senilix wrote:
]Doesn't this mean, all watchers will be marked as invalid?

Very likely, if Travis doesn't change anything on that.

Lemon wrote:
It is only natural that Leila, being one of Susan's wildlife students (I presume), would use a different definition of what it means to be absent from the nest than what we have been instructed to use.

Well, but they should have been told that "our" definition of that is another one.
However, my common sense says me probably the same as the students. A bird isn't really present at the nest anymore when he is some meters away, even when he doesn't leave the screen.
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Susan Felege
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Message 1562 - Posted: 8 Sep 2013, 18:46:21 UTC - in response to Message 1560.

All -

Clearly, we (project team) need to do a better job defining what we mean by all of these tags we are using. The tricky thing here is that you are all right in some way!

Yes - the expert is right because the bird was absent from the nest (phyically standing right at nest or on the nest) at some point during the video AND yes - the bird was also there during some point (most of) during the video.

Yes, Travis wants to know when the bird is in the screen even if some distance from the nest. I, the biologist, care about interactions of the bird directly at the nest. This is a situation where there is a lot going on with bird behavior. Pleaes remember, this project is still young and ironing out some wrinkles in how all of you might interpret something compared to a how a computer scientist and a biologist with specific research agendas might be thinking about these! Please be gentle and patient with us as we figure out places where these type issues are occurring.

Thank you all for pointing out this issue and stay tuned for a resolution of how we will handle these complex, multi-event videos so you are not penalized for classifications that are not well defined yet.

-Susan

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Message 1564 - Posted: 8 Sep 2013, 20:26:24 UTC - in response to Message 1562.

Travis wants to know when the bird is in the screen even if some distance from the nest. I, the biologist, care about interactions of the bird directly at the nest.

So why not have us mark both events separately? It would mean adding a couple more button strips, but we would be meeting the informational needs of both of you.

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Message 1566 - Posted: 8 Sep 2013, 21:26:58 UTC - in response to Message 1565.

That could lead to even more confusion, especially with New Members, they would be totally confused on how to Mark them.

Only if it was presented in a confusing way. Is there any reason a clear definition cannot be made on what it means to be "on the nest", and what it means to be "in the video"?

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Message 1568 - Posted: 8 Sep 2013, 22:56:18 UTC - in response to Message 1567.

Probably not, but from what I'm seeing the way a lot of the New Members Mark the Video's I don't think they read the ? anyway. I know I didn't when I 1'st started until I realized I was marking some wrong, only then did I read the ?

That sounds like a good reason to eliminate the ?s and use a better description to begin with.

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Message 1575 - Posted: 10 Sep 2013, 3:02:32 UTC - in response to Message 1568.

Probably not, but from what I'm seeing the way a lot of the New Members Mark the Video's I don't think they read the ? anyway. I know I didn't when I 1'st started until I realized I was marking some wrong, only then did I read the ?

That sounds like a good reason to eliminate the ?s and use a better description to begin with.


Definitely. I think we'll try and iron this out in our next meeting and see if we can come up with better descriptions and instructions for the ?s.


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Message boards : Image and Video Discussion : Expert wrong