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Chris Skull
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Message 5469 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 10:41:54 UTC

I think some people watch videos at 40x speed :-p

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Message 5470 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 11:50:17 UTC - in response to Message 5469.

I think some people watch videos at 40x speed :-p
...


It's up to each of us to do our best to carefully inspect each video for events.
Events often happen VERY fast and only last a few seconds,.. (like OFF NEST #walking -or- Camera Inspection).
The more carefully we all mark Events, the easier it is to validate Events and less efforts made submitting Reviews on viewed videos.
I encourage NOT viewing these video segments at any fast speed or skipping ahead while viewing until you have become completely familiar with the species and their habits etc.
I only do some skipping when I see a grouse on the nest at dark and cannot see it after dark... then assume it is there all night unless bothered by a predator.
That is the only time you can assume that nothing happens on the nest.

Without our efforts at being precise and diligent at marking ALL events, there is no science to be analyzed by the biologists or useful info for developing computing logarithms.
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Message 5471 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 14:34:32 UTC

I think the validating is very difficult... is there any tolerance ?? Or have the events to be exactly the same ? If i have an event from 3.20 to 3.30 and the wingman have the same event from 3.20 to 3.31 is it valid or not ? Its very difficult to catch the exact second sometimes... also if the video timeline shows 3.20 and i click to the begin field there appears 3.21... so if you don´t correct this by hand there is a second difference.

However... in the upper example my wingman don´t see any event... and i have marked 16 ! So i think he watch the video in 1 second by fly the timeline with the mouse...

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Message 5472 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 17:39:22 UTC - in response to Message 5471.

Yes, I think that Travis set the Event validation to work within 10 seconds.

So if I record Events, Bird Not in Video @ 11:41:20 to 12:31:10 and Off Nest #walking @ 12:31:11 to 12:31:16 then On Nest #sitting @ 12:31:17 to 19:30:30....
And you record the Events as Bird Not in Video @ 11:41:21 to 12:31:12 and did not record an Event for Off Nest #walking, but did have Event On Nest #sitting @ 12::31:13 to 19:30:30.
Then both of your Events would be validated and my Off Nest #walking Event would have to be validated by someone else.
If any of your Events are Invalid, you can adjust the times and names of your Events at the review section but you cannot create missed events. This gives us all a chance to match Event times if we made mistakes but still forces us to accurately record Events while watching the video.

The short answer is Yes, 10 seconds.
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Message 5473 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 17:45:24 UTC - in response to Message 5471.

The only problems we have had so far with this is that anyone using M$ IE (Internet Explorer) to mark event times doesn't properly give the ending times at the last Event on the video segment. They have to manually adjust the times after the fact of most of the ending Events.
Just use FireFox or Chrome as a browser to avoid this problem. (and others)

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Message 5474 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 17:53:47 UTC

Very difficult to understand this validation system... in the Video below i have several events exactly matching with the wingman... but they are still unvalidated.... do we need 3 matches for a validation ?

http://csgrid.org/csg/wildlife/review_videos.php#collapse_14532

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Message 5475 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 18:20:32 UTC - in response to Message 5474.
Last modified: 14 Jun 2015, 18:55:41 UTC

The validator does not yet run continuously for Wildlife Video Events.
Your Events recorded will take some time to validate. Usually Travis runs it "manually" when he gets a chance...
crowd_observation_validator undhpccsgrid Not Running

I'm looking forward to the day that it will run all the time and the Biologists will be paying more attention to the "reviews" that are requested.

btw, your link only takes me to my own Video review section...

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Message 5479 - Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 5:21:57 UTC - in response to Message 5469.

I think some people watch videos at 40x speed :-p


Unfortunately I can't see the picture/video, it looks broken, so I don't know what you are referring to, but from my experience in the past and recently there can be so much different reasons why a person misses an event that you mostly can't say why.
Although, the biggest reason is probably inexperience in using the interface and knowing what event when to chose. There may be instructions and tutorials for this, but most of the time users didn't bother to read or see anything before they doing something. That's bare fact.
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Message 5486 - Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 17:02:39 UTC - in response to Message 5474.

Very difficult to understand this validation system... in the Video below i have several events exactly matching with the wingman... but they are still unvalidated.... do we need 3 matches for a validation ?

http://csgrid.org/csg/wildlife/review_videos.php#collapse_14532


Should be only two wingmen for validation. However the validation process is somewhat tricky. We validate individual events, and look for more wingmen if all the events of users don't match up.

When I get back from the vacation I'll prepare a full writeup on how the validation works (unfortunately we're getting packed right now so I don't have too much time).

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Message 5487 - Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 17:06:57 UTC - in response to Message 5475.

The validator does not yet run continuously for Wildlife Video Events.
Your Events recorded will take some time to validate. Usually Travis runs it "manually" when he gets a chance...
crowd_observation_validator undhpccsgrid Not Running

I'm looking forward to the day that it will run all the time and the Biologists will be paying more attention to the "reviews" that are requested.

btw, your link only takes me to my own Video review section...


Sorry about the validator being down. I thought this bug was fixed via the webpages. Basically what was happening is occasionally people would finish a video without any events at all. This leads to the validator thinking it has more events to work with than it does and it crashes.

We've since updated the webpages to now allow submitting a video as finished without marking any events, but it seems like there's still a couple stragglers in the database that crash the validator from time to time.

It's back up running right now and I'll look into a more permanent solution once I'm back from Lake George.

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Message 5488 - Posted: 15 Jun 2015, 17:07:30 UTC - in response to Message 5479.

I think some people watch videos at 40x speed :-p


Unfortunately I can't see the picture/video, it looks broken, so I don't know what you are referring to, but from my experience in the past and recently there can be so much different reasons why a person misses an event that you mostly can't say why.
Although, the biggest reason is probably inexperience in using the interface and knowing what event when to chose. There may be instructions and tutorials for this, but most of the time users didn't bother to read or see anything before they doing something. That's bare fact.


Yeah, it's unfortunate but I'm not quite sure what we can do about that. There's a big "Instructions" button in the upper right hand corner of the video watching page...

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Message 5766 - Posted: 30 Jul 2015, 9:28:18 UTC

Just want to "grouse" (beware: pun) a bit about some peoples watching behaviour: ;-)
Typical example of what people see (and not) is video #11546 from the grouses.
There are now six different opinions/event timelines marked, some missed the chick completely, some not (but other times), some only marked the chicken, others did mark it as brooding.
It ended up with that the two times the chick remarkably appears and can be fully seen (as I marked it) are seemingly invalid now...
Probably there are other videos out there with way more worse and inaccurate event markings but since I'm watching again it's a "highlight" for me...
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Message 5767 - Posted: 30 Jul 2015, 11:23:47 UTC - in response to Message 5766.

Probably there are other videos out there with way more worse and inaccurate event markings....

After the new video watching system was started,(last December), it took us a while to decide to mark each appearance of a chick as an Event.
At first, some of us were marking a "Chick in Video" Event as a single event for the entire video segment starting when the chick first appeared.
There are now instructions and a training video that request each appearance of a chick be marked as an Event.
Same applies to "Brooding" Event being concurrent with all "On Nest" Events when it is known that chicks are present. Some videos you notice will have mistakes and discrepancies left over from earlier Event marking... there was a learning curve.
It ended up with that the two times the chick remarkably appears and can be fully seen (as I marked it) are seemingly invalid now...

After you find that an event is made Invalid by others mistakes, you can request a REVIEW of that Event for re-validation. Eventually it will be looked at by the experts to allow validation. It may take some time and does requires extra effort.
There is nothing that can me done about people making mistakes or not following directions in marking Events except to do your personal best.
When I notice that I have made a mistake, I will change an Event(s) name or time(s) in My Watched Videos to match other peoples marked events and submit for re-validation.
Certain Events, like insect movements, birds flying quickly by and chicks poking their heads out for a second will inevitably be missed or ignored by most viewers. Again, nothing to be done about it except to do your best and keep up with checking your previously viewed.
There will probably be an increase of missed Events as more people start relying on that "timeline" to tell them when to look for events instead of critically watching the entire video.
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Message 5768 - Posted: 30 Jul 2015, 18:27:17 UTC - in response to Message 5767.
Last modified: 30 Jul 2015, 18:38:13 UTC

After the new video watching system was started,(last December),

Last december? That can't be true, I was away at least one and a half year and this new system with the long videos (and events) was already introduced the time I left.
But maybe something changed since then (again) and progressed, didn't follow everything of the forum here, though I did read from time to time. Never mind that, not important.
Have to admit I did not look at the timestamp from when the users watched the mentioned video. But it's a bit surprising to me that some videos - which normally should have been validated already - are still around there. Does only show how less really interested users are here...
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Message 5769 - Posted: 30 Jul 2015, 18:56:18 UTC - in response to Message 5768.

ooops, how time flies when nobody's watching.
Yes, big change was made Dec. 2013.
I have sat on the sidelines waiting for more participation.
The "Event validation" does seem hopeless without more video watchers. :(

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Message 5770 - Posted: 30 Jul 2015, 20:45:44 UTC

I use varying methods for watching videos depending on the bird and other factors.

I tend to use x16 for grouse and if the timeline is sparse, I rely on it. So far I think I've only missed one leaving nest sequence. The grouse's behavior is much slower than the others. I have found it tends to stay on the nest for hours at a time and away from the nest for many minutes. This means x16 is fine because you'll always catch an event.

For plovers and tern I use slower rates because these guys flit around like they've got ants in their pants. It's easy to miss a sequence. One visual clue with the grouses is the direction they face - they tend to not move about the way that terns and plovers will rotate.

Since discovering that you can fix timing errors and event descriptions, I've been able to fix a bunch. Especially with camera interactions. I just wonder why we can't add new events in review. If I miss a sequence, and in review I see it, how is it not valid to add those events? It might mean less videos with 6 or 7 watchers and more accuracy overall.

I am fine with NOT seeing previous watchers' classifications until I've gone through at least once.

I haven't bothered with the teals because even in the picture when the expert says the bird was on nest, I couldn't see it.

Bottom line - there is no substitute for experience.

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Message 5771 - Posted: 30 Jul 2015, 21:22:55 UTC - in response to Message 5770.
Last modified: 30 Jul 2015, 21:28:55 UTC

...

Bottom line - there is no substitute for experience.


My first video I saw a grouse leave the nest at night and asked the question, "a badger walked through the nest and nobody noticed?" Experience showed me that what I was seeing was the back of a grouse close up.
I'm still embarrassed about that.

I agree Steve, The video viewing for each species and the Event Marking system require some experience. I don't get too excited anymore at others mistakes after having made all of them myself.

The reason that no Events can be added after the fact is that it would actually allow a user to submit a video with a single Event with made up times, then copy ALL the Events and times from another user in Review. The way it is now, Events and times can be changed to get some validation. But, if I totally miss an Event, I can't "cheat" by adding a complete new Event after the fact.

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Message 5772 - Posted: 30 Jul 2015, 21:43:45 UTC - in response to Message 5771.

The reason that no Events can be added after the fact is that it would actually allow a user to submit a video with a single Event with made up times, then copy ALL the Events and times from another user in Review. The way it is now, Events and times can be changed to get some validation. But, if I totally miss an Event, I can't "cheat" by adding a complete new Event after the fact.


There are ways around that but it would need programming and rules. You could say you cannot edit your events if you only submit a single event - then people might submit five fake events and then edit those. You could say you can only edit one video a day. You can't edit a video unless two other people have reviewed it (i.e., you are #3)

There will always be people trying to game any system - we're doing it here. We're trying to find ways to get the right events quickly. And that's what it comes down to: are we getting the highest accuracy for the least effort?

p.s. I would really like a decent video player. x16 is really a skip forward 25 seconds, regardless of how fast the clock increments. An actual one frame per second viewer would be brilliant.

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Message 5773 - Posted: 31 Jul 2015, 6:57:03 UTC - in response to Message 5772.

JumpinJohnny wrote:
I have sat on the sidelines waiting for more participation.
The "Event validation" does seem hopeless without more video watchers. :(

Hmm, how much do you think you have still to be validated?
I wonder since I recently got some tern and plover videos which I was the first!
I have a growing number of events in pending and my count doesn't increase much...

Steve Hawker wrote:
I haven't bothered with the teals because even in the picture when the expert says the bird was on nest, I couldn't see it.

Yeah, they're not moving much, similar to the grouses. First time I watched a teal video I got it wrong also since it didn't move the entire time, even if the video was long.
But: when you finally found something to determine if it's there or not you can (hopefully if it isn't already validated from others) go on from one video directly to another and you'll always know that you're correct.
That's a real advantage of the long videos - the chance to find clues for activity and/or presence is higher with the small ones we had at the beginning of the project. THAT was a PITA sometimes...

An actual one frame per second viewer would be brilliant.

Yeah, I wished for that already as I started with the project years ago. For some events a frame-to-frame watch could be really helpful. But for the validation process it's apparently not necessary since it doesn't compare "milli"seconds.
There is of course the possibility to copy and load the video URL into an appropriate video player for watching, but the double loading takes time, especially when you don't have a very fast internet connection. ;-)
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Message 5774 - Posted: 31 Jul 2015, 19:31:03 UTC - in response to Message 5773.
Last modified: 31 Jul 2015, 19:31:38 UTC

That's a real advantage of the long videos - the chance to find clues for activity and/or presence is higher as with the small ones we had at the beginning of the project. THAT was a PITA sometimes...

Oh, I see, there was a word missing in my sentence, marked bold now. Can be a BIG difference in meaning without. ;-)
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