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Travis Desell
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Message 5350 - Posted: 2 Jun 2015, 14:54:36 UTC

I've fixed the issue with credit totals. In one place credit was getting multiplied however with the new multi-app code it wasn't getting multiplied where actually needed. This resulted in the credit totals going down a bit for the DNA@Home credit, so I apologize for this and any confusion it might have caused. On another note, now that the DNA@Home credit is actually being displayed accurately everywhere -- what are your thoughts on the amount of credit being awarded (always a great way to stir up a can of worms)? If it is too low I'll look back into adding in a multiplier, or trying to get things working with fixed credit.

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Message 5354 - Posted: 2 Jun 2015, 16:37:08 UTC - in response to Message 5350.

I think the general consensus is to avoid Credit New at all costs. It really is a terrible system for scoring. If you could get DNA a consistent run time, then I would say go with fixed credit. But right now there appears to be different duration needs.
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Message 5355 - Posted: 2 Jun 2015, 16:40:24 UTC

Travis, there is a CSG challenge going on right now and a couple of hours ago I lost 150,000 credits in that challenge. I'm assuming it was your fix. I'm not really concerned about losing the challenge credits, but I do note that my credits didn't change at the CSG site. Had they gone down a like amount I'd have no credit for the work I've done since I joined. Something doesn't seem quite right yet.

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Message 5356 - Posted: 2 Jun 2015, 16:48:44 UTC

Mine dropped 500K as I was over 1.2 Million. However, my ~700k is more accurate to where it should have been. My scores updated here accordingly. Just as others had mentioned, the sub project scores here did not reflect the DNA point inflation. So, perhaps that is where the confusion is?
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Message 5357 - Posted: 2 Jun 2015, 16:51:18 UTC

Going to credit new is a negative step for the project. Many will be discouraged by this. DNA credit now appears to be too low compared to subset and other projects that encourage participation by a more positive attitude towards credit offered.

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Message 5359 - Posted: 2 Jun 2015, 18:27:38 UTC
Last modified: 2 Jun 2015, 18:28:08 UTC

What's going on?? I just started with BOINC. My 9500pts for CSG just dropped to 2500. That's crazy.

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Message 5361 - Posted: 2 Jun 2015, 19:29:42 UTC - in response to Message 5359.

What's going on?? I just started with BOINC. My 9500pts for CSG just dropped to 2500. That's crazy.

Only a few moments of your time reading through this forum will answer most questions.
For Example: read this thread> http://csgrid.org/csg/forum_thread.php?id=2069#5360
Or perhaps also read the one you just posted to.

The short answer is: This project just moved servers and, as always, there are small things that surface that need to be found and fixed. A problem with the 3 project total being too large because of a mistake in DNA program credit was corrected.
If you don't have time to read, That's crazy.
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Message 5362 - Posted: 2 Jun 2015, 21:04:50 UTC - in response to Message 5357.
Last modified: 2 Jun 2015, 21:07:40 UTC

Going to credit new is a negative step for the project. Many will be discouraged by this. DNA credit now appears to be too low compared to subset and other projects that encourage participation by a more positive attitude towards credit offered.


Could not agree more with those points.

Maybe there could be a separate formula to use for DNA (avoiding "credit new").
Since there are different sizes of WUs you can't have X credits for all.
How about using: Peak working set size times .25 = DNA credits?
eg. 880 x .25 = 220 credits (same WU is about 88 credits now (10%) and takes my cpu about 2 hours 45 minutes each.
Maybe that is too high but using the work file size seems fair, do-able and it could be used with a variety of WU sizes and still account for the processor power we are donating.
I think a bump in the credits structure would equal a bump in future participation.

Travis Desell
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Message 5367 - Posted: 3 Jun 2015, 1:00:21 UTC - in response to Message 5357.

Going to credit new is a negative step for the project. Many will be discouraged by this. DNA credit now appears to be too low compared to subset and other projects that encourage participation by a more positive attitude towards credit offered.


It has been credit new the whole time, it's just that for awhile there was a multiplier being applied to the DNA@Home credit that was being added to the combined total (however the credit for the DNA@Home total was not being multiplied).

The amount of time spent for a WU is pretty much deterministic on it's parameters however, so I can do fixed credit for the WUs. It just won't get done until I'm back from Reykjavik (so probably this weekend).

yo2013
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Message 5370 - Posted: 3 Jun 2015, 6:56:59 UTC

Compared to other projects I run, credit is too high.

Travis Desell
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Message 5371 - Posted: 3 Jun 2015, 10:02:48 UTC - in response to Message 5370.
Last modified: 3 Jun 2015, 10:34:00 UTC

Compared to other projects I run, credit is too high.


You might be the first person I've found saying credit new is too high. :)

On another note, right now there are basically WUs with a few different runtimes for DNA@Home. If anyone would want to offer some suggestions as to credit for the different runtimes I should be able to plug things into the FPOPS calculation to come up with a fixed credit value.

From longest running to shortest running:

largest size -- for these, snail should run longer than slug:
snail_hg19_1000fa_3motifs_6width_norepeats_1
slug_hg19_1000fa_3motifs_6width_norepeats_1

snail_hg19_1000fa_2motifs_6width_norepeats_1
slug_hg19_1000fa_2motifs_6width_norepeats_1

snail_hg19_1000fa_1motifs_6width_norepeats_1
slug_hg19_1000fa_1motifs_6width_norepeats_1

middle size -- snail and slug should run almost identically:
slug/snail_hg19_100fa_3motifs_6width_norepeats_1
slug/snail_hg19_100fa_2motifs_6width_norepeats_1
slug/snail_hg19_100fa_1motifs_6width_norepeats_1

small size -- snail and slug should run almost identically:
slug/snail_hg19_10fa_3motifs_6width_norepeats_1
slug/snail_hg19_10fa_2motifs_6width_norepeats_1
slug/snail_hg19_10fa_1motifs_6width_norepeats_1

Basically, the larger the value in front of fa, the longer the runtime, likewise the more motifs, the longer the runtime.

Alez
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Message 5376 - Posted: 3 Jun 2015, 11:14:35 UTC - in response to Message 5367.

Going to credit new is a negative step for the project. Many will be discouraged by this. DNA credit now appears to be too low compared to subset and other projects that encourage participation by a more positive attitude towards credit offered.


It has been credit new the whole time, it's just that for awhile there was a multiplier being applied to the DNA@Home credit that was being added to the combined total (however the credit for the DNA@Home total was not being multiplied).

The amount of time spent for a WU is pretty much deterministic on it's parameters however, so I can do fixed credit for the WUs. It just won't get done until I'm back from Reykjavik (so probably this weekend).


It was credit new with a multiplier being applied :)
Given the memory requirements for DNA running it on multicore systems is not just a connect and forget application unless your systems have a lot of memory. On 8 core systems, less than 16 GB available and you will start to run into system overload conditions.
Simply applying credit new with no extra reward doesn't address this issue alone.
A fixed credit system would be better with an appropriate reward for the extra work required to run DNA. The next best solution would be to continue to add a multiplier to the base credit new points system.

Travis Desell
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Message 5377 - Posted: 3 Jun 2015, 11:21:36 UTC - in response to Message 5376.

Given the memory requirements for DNA running it on multicore systems is not just a connect and forget application unless your systems have a lot of memory. On 8 core systems, less than 16 GB available and you will start to run into system overload conditions.
Simply applying credit new with no extra reward doesn't address this issue alone.
A fixed credit system would be better with an appropriate reward for the extra work required to run DNA. The next best solution would be to continue to add a multiplier to the base credit new points system.


I definitely agree. I want to move to fixed credit as it gives me a bit more flexibility, and I do think there should be a bonus due to the high memory requirements and the fact that the project is still fairly alpha and has things to debug. Hopefully I'll get some feedback on credit for the different WU sizes and we can move over to that soon.

Alez
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Message 5378 - Posted: 3 Jun 2015, 11:28:56 UTC
Last modified: 3 Jun 2015, 11:29:42 UTC

I guess the best way to determine the initial credit would be to look at the average run times for the different apps based on an average system and then propose the credit based on that.
On my account you will find a wide variety of systems from android tv boxes, pentium 4's, core2duo's, i5's, i7's and xeon servers. 3 different operating systems. Maybe some of my average run times would be a starting place ?

yo2013
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Message 5390 - Posted: 4 Jun 2015, 7:33:44 UTC - in response to Message 5371.


You might be the first person I've found saying credit new is too high. :)


No doubt :P but there was around a 3x increase in my daily credit when CSG had work available, so clearly it was too much generous compared to my other projects :P

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Message 5393 - Posted: 4 Jun 2015, 20:28:43 UTC

Fixed credit has to be the way to go, equated to the amount of value to the project. Whether that be determined by file size or results. That means a true level playing field as faster computers produce more work and rightly earn more credit.

CreditNew is the worst system of all. Please change all the projects away from it at your earliest convenience.

A credit scoring system like the original Wildlife would be my favorite. I would definitely crunch DNA again if it were like that...

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Message 5396 - Posted: 5 Jun 2015, 1:54:44 UTC - in response to Message 5393.
Last modified: 5 Jun 2015, 2:08:45 UTC

You need to be careful with Credit New system it uses a faulty benchmark system to determine the base credit. For instance in Numberfields the AMD rigs I have running (a 64 core 6276 running at 2900Mhz and a 48 core 63xx rig running at 3800Mhz) are faster than the 64 core 4650 rigs I have running at 3140Mhz. On an average the AMD rigs complete the WU's quite a bit faster but receive substantially less credit per hr of run time than the Intel rigs do. It was confirmed by Eric here at this link. http://numberfields.asu.edu/NumberFields/forum_thread.php?id=209#1097

Although I do not see this problem here at Citizens at least not from appearance anyway The 48 core 63xx AMD rig at 3800Mhz is the fastest rig I am running and is collecting the most points core for core.

Also YAFY Multi Threaded app had a problem with the credit system. http://yafu.myfirewall.org/yafu/forum_thread.php?id=160#666

Anyway from personal experience Credit New may not be the best choice of credit systems.

Also I do agree that DNA does deserve a premium due to the ram needed to run it and the the amount of writing to disk it does. I believe it has the potential to significantly shorten the life of the HD.


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